February 18, 2015

SeConf2014: Fish Bowl with the Selenium Committers

Did you know that by going to the Official 2014 Selenium Conference Site and selecting the Program Schedule you can pull up all the slides, handouts, and video recordings of all the talks given at the conference which was held back in September 2014 in Bangalore, India? For the next few blog posts, I will be publishing my notes on a few of these YouTube captured talks.  

With this "Fish Bowl" discussion, chairs are not just for panelists -- they are for the audience members, too! Have a better answer to an audience question than a panelist? Take the stage and answer the question.

The panel consisted of:

  • Santiago Suarez Ordoñez, at Sauce Labs. 
  • Dima Kovalenko, from Groupon 
  • Jim Evans, from Salesforce
  • Simon Stewart, creator of WebDriver and lead on the Selenium Project, from Facebook. 
  • Julian Harty, testing and documenting Selenium, working at eBay. 

Here are a few questions asked during the session and their respective answers:

Q) Why can't you run Selenium on an already open browser?

A) Jim Evans answered that the reason that it's not possible currently to attach to a running browser instance is that the WebDriver library has to communicate with a browser somehow. That communication channel is some sort of TCP/IP port, and the only way you can instruct the browser to listen on that port is when you launch the browser.

The browser, by itself, doesn't have the ability just to listen on command to the TCP/IP port. With Firefox, we need a profile to do that. With Chrome, there is a command line switch that the Chrome driver adds to Chrome to start listening on a port. Jim continued,

"Interestingly, with Internet Explorer there is a possibility that you -could- in theory connect to an existing browser. I have been reluctant to add something like that specifically -- that is IE specific -- because I believe that our API is and should continue to be cross-platform". 

Simon Stewart added,
"So, there is, however, a really easy way to solve this problem, which is to not solve it. 
"If you put the life cycle of the browser under the control of Selenium, like if you start the browser that you are going to use for the manual section with WebDriver, then you already have that connection up and running. And when you hit the end and it's like 'Ah! Now I need to be able to poke around in a browser controller' because you have already started a browser session you will be able to do that.
"If you are using the Selenium Server or something like that you could probably use, like, Python to give you a REPL [ read–eval–print loop, language shell - TJ ] or even Ruby, right? [...] You don't need to code everything up. You can have a completely interactive session... and that might save you a lot of time and effort... and you could do it today... and it would work for all browsers".   

Q) What is your plans for HTML 5 with respect to Selenium WebDriver?

A) Simon Stewart mentioned HTML 5 is big beast, composed of a bunch of moving pieces. CSS3 probably hooks in there "as well and the 3D transforms and the horror that that entails". He continued,

"Let's break it down into the various bits and pieces: 
"HTML 5 is an evolution of the HTML standards, is presented in the browsers... it's still got the DOM [Document Object Model]. WebDriver will continue to work with those things.  
"Then next thing we will probably come across is the fact that it's got new form elements that people use. We have in the standards -- we've had several discussions on how to handle those and we just -- 'just' -- need to write some new utility standards to make that work the way we want it to. But effectively each of the new HTML form elements has a sort of string serialization that it sends across the wire and we will make it easy so if you do 'SendKeys' with that string serialization the correct thing will happen in the HTML 5 form element".

Q) Can you talk about the driver implementation for Safari? 

They mentioned that a lot of the problems with the Safari driver and how it doesn't work like the others was basically because it was a hack in Javascript. The driver for Safari doesn't really have internal control of the browser, and can't do anything the browser registers as being insecure, such as the Alert API. If an alert pops up, things just stop. This is why they are working on the spec to be submitted to the W3C, so Apple can step up and give the Selenium project their own implementation of the driver.

Q)  Do you have a relationship with the Safari team?

When this question was asked, Simon Stewart visibly sighed. He then explained that Google (who does the Chrome driver) and Mozilla (who does Firefox) has a very open culture. They are willing and able to communicate and participate with an open source project such as the Selenium project. Simon explained:

"Microsoft [has] over the years has become more and more open and are able -- they come to face-to-face meetings, they discuss things with us. They are writing their own implementation -- which is brilliant. They have a corporate culture that is concerned about open source for reasons that they're worried about, y'know, if some of it gets in and the viral nature of the GBL what happens to their crown jewels so they are quite sensibly protecting things in the best way -- the best way they believe is possible.     
"The corporate culture of Apple is, ah, a more closed one. You know, Apple famously [doesn't] leak very well. They are a company that leaks come from the top. [...] The lower levels in the engineering levels of Apple are incredibly disciplined about maintaining the strictures they have with their corporate NDAs [Non-Disclosure Agreements]. So, we talk to the Apple Team, [...] we communicate with them, but the culture of the company isn't one where they will come out and say to us, "Oh, by the way, we are doing this'.  
"We are following the steps that we are meant to do in order to do the right things [...] That's just the way the company is, I am not saying anything good or bad about them. I think that's the way their company works. 
"My expectation is that Apple [is] a company that does a good job with standards implementation like Safari ... knocked it out of the park when it came out! It was like, Opera had a fantastic standards implementation WebKit came out and also did an excellent job. And, you know, they are Unix-compliant in OS X, that so they understand standards and the importance of it and my expectation and hope is that when we get the standard out -- the specification -- then there will be that concrete thing which allows Apple to participate in the browser automation community that I don't think we have enabled them to do".   

Q) [To Simon] Can you share with us the Selenium landscape at Facebook? What kind of tests, how many tests do you run?

Simon Stewart mentioned that Facebook, where he is a software engineer, he does not do browser automation. He works on their build tool. He did set up the end-to-end testing for their mobile IOS and Android product, but he rolled off that project a year to fourteen months after he first joined Facebook and he is now (as of September 2014, the recording of the talk) working on the build tool team. Simon added,
"By the way, the build tool is 'buck', B-U-C-K, which is open source and is on GitHub. It's like a next generation build tool. If you build any Java, take a look at it. It is blazingly fast... I will stop advertising things now". [ Official SiteGitHub code ]

Q) What are some challenges do you face working with Selenium?

Simon Stewart: "For me, Paul Hammond had it right when he called me insane ... when I started down the path of tightly integrating with the browser instead of doing the JavaScript thing that Selenium RC [...] did. And he was entirely and completely correct that it was an absolutely bonkers thing to do -- to have done, and if I had realized how hard it was I wouldn't have started. But I was young and foolish ... and did it anyway".
Jim Evans: "Big challenge? [...] I think, for me, probably the biggest challenge wasn't a technical one for me. The biggest challenge was simply... was social on my part, just getting over the hump of thinking 'Wow, can I really do this', am I able, do I have the ability to do the things that needed to be done in the project [...] and that to me is something that was a real challenge for me to overcome to just dig in and do it and start, and if I wasn't up to it, I wasn't up to it".

Santiago Suarez Ordoñez: "I think for me would be ... it was how extensive the code base is? Definitely challenging. Every once in a while you have to get reminded of the structure of where things are and the fact there are -- six clients? Seven clients? Every code change you want to do you have to apply it... if you go to clients -- seven clients -- you have to talk to seven people who own them and push them through a huge immense crowd of people who will be testing them. So, it's a big challenge, for sure".

Dima Kovalenko: "For me, it's pretty much the same story every time you get on a new project that has a Selenium build inside of a build tool. And the fact that Selenium build is always the last one to run and there is 90% red because there are one or two tests that constantly flake out for whatever reason and so it's easy to think about this as a technical problem how  we need to stabilaize the build... we need to  put these Ajax things in [...]. But in fact, a majority of the testability seems to be a cultural problem where the developers or the team -- the QA team -- whoever -- do not really respect the Selenium build enough to actively maintain it. And so, having to convince the whole team, 'Hey guys, this is important. It's a first class citizen in the build queue' and once you move it up and once it is no longer the last thing that runs and nobody cares about and get it to run every single build and then convince the team to help you out and root out all the little flakiness and everything ... and once you get to a point where it is 99% green ... it takes a year or two to complete that cultural shift but once that happens it's quite an amazing result where the Selenium build fails and several developers completely just jump up and freak out 'Whoah, whoah! What did I do wrong? What did I do wrong?' instead of 'Eh! It screwed up' ".

-T.J. Maher
 Sr. QA Engineer
 Quincy, MA


Wyld Club said...

Nice blog! Thanks for sharing.
Vip Table Booking

valentina said...

Traffic Lawyer Clarke VAThe most informative article.Keep sharing more.

william said...

The blog post "SECONF2014 Fish Bowl with Selenium" by TJ Maher is an insightful and informative read. Maher provides a detailed account of the SECONF2014 event, highlighting the discussions and insights from the Fish Bowl session with a focus on Selenium. The post effectively captures the essence of the event and its relevance to the testing community. With clear writing and engaging content, Maher's post offers valuable takeaways for those interested in Selenium and software testing events. Overall, a must-read for testing professionals and enthusiasts.
abogado de accidentes

Davidwilley said...

"SeConf2014," suggests the Selenium Conference 2014, while "fish bowl" could refer to a discussion or session format. The exact details of this event or session are unclear. If you have specific questions or need information related to Selenium, Selenium Conference 2014, or any specific topic within this context, please provide more details or clarify your request. The author is here to help and will be happy to provide more information or engage in a deeper conversation on any specific topic.Abogados de Lesiones Personales de Hampton Virginia

martin03481 said...

The 2014 Selenium Conference in Bangalore, India, featured a "Fish Bowl" discussion featuring prominent figures in the Selenium community. The discussion was encouraged by both panelists and audience members, promoting a collaborative and inclusive approach. Panelists like Santiago Suarez Ordoñez, Dima Kovalenko, Jim Evans, Simon Stewart, and Julian Harty shared their experiences in test automation, software testing, enterprise software development, and Selenium architecture. The audience's active participation showcased the vibrant spirit of the Selenium community and allowed for a diverse range of voices to be heard. The Fish Bowl format allowed for a wide spectrum of expertise to be shared, highlighting the evolving landscape of test automation in 2014 and its ongoing impact on the industry alexandria virginia motorcycle accident

allan bennett said...

"SEConf2014 Fish Bowl" is a format used in conferences and meetings to facilitate open and dynamic group discussions. It involves a small group of participants sitting in a circle to discuss a topic or question, while the larger audience observes. The audience can join the discussion by moving into the circle, and those in the circle can leave the discussion and return to the audience as they wish. If you have specific questions or topics related to Selenium testing, SEConf2014, or the fishbowl discussion, please provide more details and I will do my best to assist you.abogados de accidentes

tyrionlannister said...

honorarios de abogados de patrimonioThe post provides information about the Official 2014 Selenium Conference, including slides, handouts, and video recordings. It highlights the practicality of accessing the content on the program schedule and uses a multimedia approach. The post also mentions the use of YouTube for talks, providing context to the content. The use of "Did you know" engages readers with a lesser-known resource. The commitment to publishing notes on selected talks creates anticipation for future blog posts. The location reference to Bangalore, India, adds a geographical context. The mention of "SeConf2014" implies a Selenium-related conference targeting a niche audience. The post's brevity encourages exploration of conference content.

romanr03481 said...

The 2014 Selenium conference provided valuable insights into the intricacies of Selenium WebDriver and its compatibility across different browsers. The discussions highlighted the technical constraints of WebDriver's communication channels, the complexities of Safari's implementation, the nuances of working with different browser teams, and the cultural shift required for Selenium's effective integration into builds. Each contributor brought a unique perspective to the challenges faced, emphasizing the need for connection and complexities across different browsers like Firefox, Chrome, and Internet Explorer. Simon Stewart discussed the evolving landscape of HTML5 and its impact on WebDriver, emphasizing the need for utility standards for seamless interaction. The panelists also discussed the unique challenges with Safari's driver implementation, primarily rooted in its JavaScript-based hack, which limits control over certain browser functionalities like the Alert API. The differences in corporate cultures, particularly between Google/Mozilla and Apple, impacted collaboration with open-source projects like Selenium. Lastly, the panelists' personal accounts revealed the challenges beyond technicalities, highlighting the importance of fostering a culture that values Selenium's role in the build cycle as crucial as technical proficiency. accidente motocicleta

littlefinger said...

The query is unclear, as there is no detailed information on Selenium and a fishbowl in the context of a specific event or project in 2014. For information on using Selenium with a fishbowl application or scenario, more specific details or context are needed. The speaker is happy to provide more information or assistance, but requests clarification on the topic or context. They will do their best to help.abogado testamentario

Norawalker said...

is emotional abuse domestic violence in virginia
The review discusses the 'SeConf2014: Fish Bowl with the Selenium Committers', a unique and interactive session with Selenium Committers during the Selenium Conference 2014. It expects to explore the 'Fish Bowl' format, its highlights, and its impact on the Selenium community. The review could also discuss the inclusion of audience questions, its relevance to Selenium development, and its inclusivity of community members. It could also discuss visual documentation or recording of the Fish Bowl session. The review concludes with gratitude for the transparency and community engagement facilitated by the Selenium Committers during the conference.

Robert said...

"how to file for uncontested divorce in virginia"
The review comments for "SeConf2014: Fish Bowl with the Selenium Committers" praise the panel's depth, insights, and engaging nature. They highlight the dynamic interaction among committers, creating an informative and entertaining session for Selenium enthusiasts. The panel captures the collaborative spirit that makes Selenium a powerhouse in test automation, making it a must-watch for testing professionals.

steveharington said...

divorce lawyer fredericksburg The driver for Safari doesn't really have internal control of the browser, and can't do anything the browser registers as being insecure, such as the Alert API. If an alert pops up, things just stop